Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
- Smokyray
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Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
Guys,
I'm new to Maule ownership but have been flying them for some time. (41years!) I currently own a pristine 87' M5-180C. Previously I owned 2 RVs (4,6) I built and my RV4 was a test aircraft for Craig Cattos early composite designs. I became a huge fan of the type and a recent trip to OSH and seeing all the new 0-360 powered Huskies with 2 blade Hartzell Composites out front got me thinking. Why not have this on an M5-180?
So I contacted my good friend Les at Hartzell who in turn hooked me up with Trevor Parker. Here's what Trevor had to say:
Hi Smokey,
Les asked me to respond to this for you.
That composite propeller (HC-C2YR-1N/NG8301-3, marketing calls it a Trailblazer) is likely a good performance match to that airframe and mission. There are three paths to installing the prop on the aircraft:
1) Via STC
a. There currently isn’t an STC to install the composite prop (or a version of it) on the M-5-180C
b. Creating an STC is costly and time consuming and, unfortunately, the market for the M-5-180C is small due to the limited number of aircraft so to my knowledge we don’t currently have any plans to pursue an STC for this installation.
2) Via field approval
a. A field approval is a bit simpler in terms of process as compared to an STC, but still needs to address the regulations. This can be done in coordination with the FSDO or an appropriately qualified DER.
3) Via experimental category
a. The aircraft could be placed into an experimental category, i.e. R&D, for a limited time to perform testing. This limits the utility of the aircraft during time in the category based on the operating limitations, and isn’t typically a long term solution.
Either an STC or a field approval for this installation would require a fair amount of testing and effort. Two things that make this application complicated are the diameter and noise. The Husky uses an 80” diameter version of the propeller. The TC for the M-5-180C only approves the use of a 76” prop, and I can’t find any STCs that install a larger diameter propeller to use as a comparison. Currently, a 76” diameter version of the composite propeller is not vibrationally approved with the O-360-C1F (or similar) engine. Several larger diameters are approved on the engine, but increasing the diameter used on the airplane impacts noise and ground clearance. Ground clearance is fairly straight forward and can be measured to show it meets the requirements (assuming it would), but it’s another step. Noise is impacted by a change of propeller and needs to be addressed even if the diameter stays the same; given the particulars, it’s unlikely that this could be addressed via analysis especially if the diameter increases. In order to test, there needs to be performance information available in order to determine the test condition; if the flight manual for the M-5-180C is like the other Maule flight manuals I’ve seen, this information doesn’t exist and would have to be generated via flight testing.
If you wanted to test it yourself, you’d have to acquire a propeller and work with a DAR to put the aircraft into experimental and back into standard category when you were done.
I hope this helps, please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Trevor
Undeterred I'm continuing the investigation into getting one on my M5 for testing.
I'll keep the group posted!
V/R
Smokey
I'm new to Maule ownership but have been flying them for some time. (41years!) I currently own a pristine 87' M5-180C. Previously I owned 2 RVs (4,6) I built and my RV4 was a test aircraft for Craig Cattos early composite designs. I became a huge fan of the type and a recent trip to OSH and seeing all the new 0-360 powered Huskies with 2 blade Hartzell Composites out front got me thinking. Why not have this on an M5-180?
So I contacted my good friend Les at Hartzell who in turn hooked me up with Trevor Parker. Here's what Trevor had to say:
Hi Smokey,
Les asked me to respond to this for you.
That composite propeller (HC-C2YR-1N/NG8301-3, marketing calls it a Trailblazer) is likely a good performance match to that airframe and mission. There are three paths to installing the prop on the aircraft:
1) Via STC
a. There currently isn’t an STC to install the composite prop (or a version of it) on the M-5-180C
b. Creating an STC is costly and time consuming and, unfortunately, the market for the M-5-180C is small due to the limited number of aircraft so to my knowledge we don’t currently have any plans to pursue an STC for this installation.
2) Via field approval
a. A field approval is a bit simpler in terms of process as compared to an STC, but still needs to address the regulations. This can be done in coordination with the FSDO or an appropriately qualified DER.
3) Via experimental category
a. The aircraft could be placed into an experimental category, i.e. R&D, for a limited time to perform testing. This limits the utility of the aircraft during time in the category based on the operating limitations, and isn’t typically a long term solution.
Either an STC or a field approval for this installation would require a fair amount of testing and effort. Two things that make this application complicated are the diameter and noise. The Husky uses an 80” diameter version of the propeller. The TC for the M-5-180C only approves the use of a 76” prop, and I can’t find any STCs that install a larger diameter propeller to use as a comparison. Currently, a 76” diameter version of the composite propeller is not vibrationally approved with the O-360-C1F (or similar) engine. Several larger diameters are approved on the engine, but increasing the diameter used on the airplane impacts noise and ground clearance. Ground clearance is fairly straight forward and can be measured to show it meets the requirements (assuming it would), but it’s another step. Noise is impacted by a change of propeller and needs to be addressed even if the diameter stays the same; given the particulars, it’s unlikely that this could be addressed via analysis especially if the diameter increases. In order to test, there needs to be performance information available in order to determine the test condition; if the flight manual for the M-5-180C is like the other Maule flight manuals I’ve seen, this information doesn’t exist and would have to be generated via flight testing.
If you wanted to test it yourself, you’d have to acquire a propeller and work with a DAR to put the aircraft into experimental and back into standard category when you were done.
I hope this helps, please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Trevor
Undeterred I'm continuing the investigation into getting one on my M5 for testing.
I'll keep the group posted!
V/R
Smokey
- Andy Young
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
Smokey,
You don’t by chance own a horse named Rocinante, do you?
You don’t by chance own a horse named Rocinante, do you?
- JerseyJim
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
I bought the MT and they handled the field approval. I was sick of the hub AD on the stock Hartzell HC-C2YK-1BF and decided to upgrade. Very happy with the MT. Do not try to go and get a field approval on your own
1984 M5 180-C
- Smokyray
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
Jim, did you install a 2 or 3 blade MT?
I like MT as well, a 2 blade Fixed Pitch graces the nose of my RV4 to this day!
So, protocol is to contact MT USA, order, purchase and wait. Install, test, sell Hartzell?
Any performance improvements?
Pics?
Thanks
Smokey
Smokyray@rocketmail.com
I like MT as well, a 2 blade Fixed Pitch graces the nose of my RV4 to this day!
So, protocol is to contact MT USA, order, purchase and wait. Install, test, sell Hartzell?
Any performance improvements?
Pics?
Thanks
Smokey
Smokyray@rocketmail.com
- Lmjr
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
My mechanic and I got a two blade MT field approved on my M7-235C with an O-540 B4B5. People were saying no way no how, in actuality it wasn't that much of a hassle. Biggest hurdle to get over is the noise with the increased diameter.
- Smokyray
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
Aside from the few issues you mentioned, how do you like the MT 2Blade?
Did you retain the original Governor?
Any RPM restrictions?
Already working it...
Thanks
V/R
Smokey
Did you retain the original Governor?
Any RPM restrictions?
Already working it...
Thanks
V/R
Smokey
- Lmjr
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
- We got around the noise issue with the larger diameter prop by limiting max continuous RPM to 2520. Max takeoff is still 2575 RPM (limited for 5 minutes). This wasn't an issue as I don't fly around at 2575 RPM anyway.
- We had no issue with original prop governor. (Did have to adjust)
- I had the 3 blade Hartzell so we saved 45 #'s with 2 blade MT. Biggest benefit.
- I have around 150 hrs on the prop a lot of it off field (beaches, gravel bars, etc) and so far I really like it. no issues with dings. I try to be careful (like I would with any prop) when taxing off field especially down wind.
I have the spring Aluminum gear on 31" bushwheels
- We had no issue with original prop governor. (Did have to adjust)
- I had the 3 blade Hartzell so we saved 45 #'s with 2 blade MT. Biggest benefit.
- I have around 150 hrs on the prop a lot of it off field (beaches, gravel bars, etc) and so far I really like it. no issues with dings. I try to be careful (like I would with any prop) when taxing off field especially down wind.
I have the spring Aluminum gear on 31" bushwheels
- Smokyray
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
Awesome, thanks for sharing, looking forward to a weight reduction, smoother running and cool points soon!
Thanks!
Smokey
Thanks!
Smokey
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
Smokey,
Catto makes an 80” prop for the Cubcrafters. I think it’s certified. You and me both know a Catto is a great prop. Maybe give Craig a call to see he has something you can borrow and give a field report on.
Craig
Catto makes an 80” prop for the Cubcrafters. I think it’s certified. You and me both know a Catto is a great prop. Maybe give Craig a call to see he has something you can borrow and give a field report on.
Craig
- Smokyray
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
Great idea!
On it..
V/R
Smokey
On it..
V/R
Smokey
- Hottshot
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
I have a MT # blade on my M5 180 and Its nice, I am prob going to sell it and get a longer 2 blade installed if the pull tests are more positive. Or I may sell the airplane and start over...lol
Wup Winn
541-263-2968
Joseph Or, 97846
info@backcountryconnection.com
wup@maulesales.com
www.backcountryconnection.com
541-263-2968
Joseph Or, 97846
info@backcountryconnection.com
wup@maulesales.com
www.backcountryconnection.com
- Smokyray
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
Hey Wup, if you ever decide to sell your prop let me know! Yep, always tempting to sell with the crazy market out there right now, only going to keep going up...
V/R
Smokey
smokyray@rocketmail.com
V/R
Smokey
smokyray@rocketmail.com
- Hottshot
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Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
Ok I will definitely be putting the M5 on the Block, I found another project I want to build. Ill get back to you on the M8 Smokey.
Wup Winn
541-263-2968
Joseph Or, 97846
info@backcountryconnection.com
wup@maulesales.com
www.backcountryconnection.com
541-263-2968
Joseph Or, 97846
info@backcountryconnection.com
wup@maulesales.com
www.backcountryconnection.com
- Smokyray
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- Smokyray
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:38 am
- Contact:
Re: Hartzell Trailblazer Comp for M5-180
Update:
McFarlane Aviation has recently secured field approvals for several certified aircraft for the MT 2 MTV-15-B/203-58 2 blade mated to the 0-360.
When I contacted McFarlane, "Larry" assured me he was working closely with a new and relatively cooperative DAR. He was upbeat concerning my request since the FAA has been receptive especially when removing an AD infested prop for one which has none.
The saga continues...
V/R
Smokey
McFarlane Aviation has recently secured field approvals for several certified aircraft for the MT 2 MTV-15-B/203-58 2 blade mated to the 0-360.
When I contacted McFarlane, "Larry" assured me he was working closely with a new and relatively cooperative DAR. He was upbeat concerning my request since the FAA has been receptive especially when removing an AD infested prop for one which has none.
The saga continues...
V/R
Smokey
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